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Post by Yuliya on Jul 1, 2004 7:17:56 GMT -5
I thought at least SparklingBlue may find it interesting. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3830521.stmCongo word 'most untranslatable'The world's most difficult word to translate has been identified as "ilunga" from the Tshiluba language spoken in south-eastern DR Congo. It came top of a list drawn up in consultation with 1,000 linguists. Ilunga means "a person who is ready to forgive any abuse for the first time, to tolerate it a second time, but never a third time". It seems straightforward enough, but the 1,000 language experts identified it as the hardest word to translate. In second place was shlimazl which is Yiddish for "a chronically unlucky person". Third was Naa, used in the Kansai area of Japan to emphasise statements or agree with someone. Although the definitions seem fairly precise, the problem is trying to convey the local references associated with such words, says Jurga Zilinskiene, head of Today Translations, which carried out the survey. "Probably you can have a look at the dictionary and... find the meaning," she said. "But most importantly it's about cultural experiences and... cultural emphasis on words." The speed at which simultaneous interpreters work only adds to the difficulty of trying to explain words with complex meanings. And technical jargon, often found in politics, business or sport, has difficulties of its own. Miss Zilinskiene's own bete noir is "googly", a cricketing term for "an off-breaking ball disguised by the bowler with an apparent leg-break action". But then many people find cricket incomprehensible anyway. Naa. ***** Unfortunately, I couldn't find the entire list. From another article I got 3 words in English - gobbledegook, plenipotentiary, and poppycock. There's also Polish, Dutch, Portugese, Arabic, Tamil, and Albanian - if you know any of thsoe languages, PM me, I'll send you the words I found. And there's a Russian word that means "a child who constantly asks questions." (It derives from "why" - a whyer. When I called my son a whyer, he immediately asked why.) As for shlimazl (spelling may vary) - I love this description from The Alternative Yiddish Dictionary: shlemazle (noun) unlucky oaf. note The sort of person who has soup spilled upon him by somebody else. (see schlemiel) shlemiel (noun) clumsy oaf. Klutz. note The sort of person who, when at a fancy restaurant, invariably spills his soup.
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Post by Ace on Jul 1, 2004 10:22:59 GMT -5
ilunga: seems like the Congo variation of "three strikes and you're out" I've always LOVED that schlemiel/shlemazle definition. And ;D ;D ;D ;D on your son whying being called a whyer! Ace
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Post by sparklingblue on Jul 1, 2004 10:30:29 GMT -5
Yes, I am interested! These translation problems are something I am familiar with, though the ones I have encountered so far would probably not make it on this list. They are not in-translateable as such. I think translaters have less of a problem than interpreters in this area to begin with because interpreting is so much faster and there is no way of putting an asterisk behind the word in question and explain it in a little note. From the words here I only know gobbledegook. And shlemil sounds familiar, too, though I didn't remember the meaning. In German there is the word Schlamassel, which refers to a very unfortunate and complicated situation.
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Post by curious george on Jul 1, 2004 11:15:55 GMT -5
Too bad you didn't get the whole list; sounds like fun! Personally, I've always seen it spelled "gobbledeygook," not that that's a huge difference, and I don't see that as all that hard to translate. (opinions from non-English speakers?) Poppycock, as far as I know, simply means "nonsense!" (as an exclamation rather than a noun), or is a much less offensive exclamation, than, say, "b***s***!" Have seen the word plenipotentiary (and think I may have heard it used on The West Wing), but I can't say that I know what it means. I hate to ask this, because I couldn't stand the show and didn't watch it, but are those two Yiddish words by any chance part of that Bizarro chant that Laverne and Shirley used to do at the beginning of that show? I never could understand what they were saying. cg
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Post by sparklingblue on Jul 1, 2004 11:40:24 GMT -5
Personally, I've always seen it spelled "gobbledeygook," not that that's a huge difference, and I don't see that as all that hard to translate. (opinions from non-English speakers?) I can think of ways to translate it into German. ("Technogebrabbel", "Fachchinesisch" ) But it's the only langugage (I like to think) I know well enough to do that. Might not be possible in others.
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 1, 2004 13:54:48 GMT -5
ilunga: seems like the Congo variation of "three strikes and you're out" I was thinking "Goldfinger," actually. These translation problems are something I am familiar with, though the ones I have encountered so far would probably not make it on this list. They are not in-translateable as such. I think translaters have less of a problem than interpreters in this area to begin with because interpreting is so much faster and there is no way of putting an asterisk behind the word in question and explain it in a little note. Unless we're talking about translating literature... And expectations to interpreters are usually not that high, either, because of additional constraints. I think you've just uncovered the mystery of this word, at least to me. I've always thought it had something to do with "mazal," which is Hebrew for luck, but it's probably just altered "Schlamassel" - Yiddish is, after all, just a slightly spoiled High German with seriously spoiled Hebrew, Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish words. Too bad you didn't get the whole list; sounds like fun! Personally, I've always seen it spelled "gobbledeygook," not that that's a huge difference, and I don't see that as all that hard to translate. (opinions from non-English speakers?) I got the spelling from the article - sic. It's possible there are several different ones. Webster says it's wordy and generally unintelligible jargon, so it would depend on context as well as on the language. However, in the article I got it from they implied beauro-speak, I don't know why. Maybe they were having their own translation problems. Invested with full power. Whatever it means. I'm sure there is a diplomatic term for that in some languages, but that's soooo not my area. You mean there are shows other than RS? I can't possibly comment. Many words in Yiddish start with "sh" (or "sch," which is the same) (and not all of them come from German. )
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Post by curious george on Jul 1, 2004 15:02:15 GMT -5
That may well be it, then, because it seems to me it was in an episode that had to do with officially naming ambassadors to other countries. Or was it accepting them from other countries to here? Please, don't even think about them in the same breath (to mix analogies, or expressions, or something). Anybody else out there know what I'm talking about? The opening credits of the show (L&S) always started with the two holding hands, alternating dipping/bending up and down (at the knees), and chanting something that never quite sounded like English to me, and as close as I could tell, could have passed for "shlemiel, shlemazle, something-something incorporated." Thanks so much for putting that stupid phrasing into my head. That's even worse than "George of the Jungle." Or maybe not. to migs for that one! ;D cg
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 1, 2004 15:20:32 GMT -5
Mark Twain wrote a charming short story - "Cut the Tickets" or something like that - about a charming little song that got into his head and he couldn't get it out. When I was a kid, it was one of my and my mom's favorites. Quick Google search revealed that the opening song (that's what they called it) was "Schlemiel, schlimazel, hasenpfeffer incorporated!" Hasenpfeffer is a German rabbit dish, I'm sure SparklingBlue and Xenos know more about it (is "hasen" German for "rabbit"?) As for plenipotantiary - I don't know what they meant in West Wing, probably the same the article I got it from meant. It's a diplomat invested with full power, usually when there is no diplomatic relationship yet or in the abcense (permanent or temporary) of an ambassador. Actually, there is an exact translation to Russian - 2 words that make a steady expression, so I know how to translate it better than what exactly it means.
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 1, 2004 15:34:46 GMT -5
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Post by curious george on Jul 1, 2004 16:46:58 GMT -5
Hamburger with eggs sandwich. Yummy. cg
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Post by sparklingblue on Jul 2, 2004 10:17:54 GMT -5
Quick Google search revealed that the opening song (that's what they called it) was "Schlemiel, schlimazel, hasenpfeffer incorporated!" Hasenpfeffer is a German rabbit dish, I'm sure SparklingBlue and Xenos know more about it (is "hasen" German for "rabbit"?) Yes, Hase is German for rabbit. I never heard of this dish as such, but there are so many German recipes, and there are many regional differences as well. Besides, I could never eat rabbit.
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 2, 2004 10:25:44 GMT -5
Not even after it ate something you planted?
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Post by sparklingblue on Jul 2, 2004 10:38:54 GMT -5
Snails always ate things my mum planted in our garden, but we didn't eat them in return, either. Did you ever eat rabbits who ate your plants?
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Post by curious george on Jul 2, 2004 11:08:38 GMT -5
Yuliya, I'd love to be able to find that Mark Twain story. How sure are you of the title?
cg
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 2, 2004 11:17:24 GMT -5
Not sure at all - I couldn't find it on Google. I still have the edition my mom and I read, though, when I come home, I'll see if it lists the original title. If not, at least it should list the year.
No, I never ate the rabbit that ate my currant bush, but I was close to killing the nasty thing providing it were stupid enough to let me catch it. Usually I prefer to to get too closely acquainted with the source of my protein.
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Post by curious george on Jul 2, 2004 15:34:44 GMT -5
That would be great. Did you read a lot of his stuff? There are several of his short stories that are quite funny.
cg
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 2, 2004 18:19:17 GMT -5
I read not nearly as much as I should have - mostly short stories, The Mysterious Stranger, and the usual kids' stuff. I'd love to read Inocents Abroad though my husband did and said it lost its appeal by the end. The story I was talking about is called Punch, Brothers, Punch. You can read it here - www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/559/ - it's very short.
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Post by curious george on Jul 2, 2004 19:36:53 GMT -5
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Post by Yuliya on Jul 3, 2004 5:38:21 GMT -5
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Post by curious george on Jul 3, 2004 19:36:23 GMT -5
Oh, thanks ~ I do have a book of Twain stories, with that in it, I just didn't know why it wasn't on the list you originally dug up. I've always liked it, thought someone else might enjoy it. ;D I know - I cracked up when I first read it. I think you have to have a taste for Samuel Clemens; I'm sure a lot of folks today just wouldn't appreciate his work. He has some great satire in and around a lot of the humor, too. cg
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